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Post by Dagothkitty on Apr 7, 2007 22:32:05 GMT -5
Most people would answer this question by saying stuff like, a movie star, or some sport star, but nah, I say they haven't done anything special. "Yeah they have, man he has a world record!" Well, would it wouldn;t be possible if he's dead. Which leads me to this: The person I respect most is the U.S. army soldier. Whether it be air force, navy, anything. Why? Well, do I really have to go over this? They defend som much things. People may call these people cruel and senselss, but I dount you wouldn't shoot someone in a hostile country, who is known for suicide bombing. Ok, here is a scenario: An Iraqi man is walking. You and your platoon tell him to stop moving. You raise your guns.... just incase. He turns towards you, and starts walking towards you and your men. You order him to stop, but he neglects those orders and keeps moving. What would you do? Would you take he risk? No, I know I wouldn't. Trust me, these people are the REAL people who keep this country alive. I recently talked to 23 year old, just out of Iraq and Afghanistan. He is in the 10th mountain division. People may think that soldiers don't have an opinion. AThey think that someone tells them to shoot a guy, and they do. Thats not the case. I asked him on his opinion, in general, about the War In Iraq, and if he thinks that Bush is a good president, and If thinks that the choices Bush makes are good. This is what he said: I don't ask you to love them, all I am saying is respect them. Do you/ Do you agree with what I said?
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Post by Uesugi on Apr 8, 2007 0:33:39 GMT -5
As the grandson of a marine, I am offended you didn't list marines whilst listing various branches of the military... That aside... A friend of mine sent me this a while ago. 'Tis a nice article. To sum it up, most people will never like anyone whom they know can kill. If you can hold a gun, and are willing to shoot someone with it, in cold blood or to save another, you are a monster until you do help someone with it. And then, as time passes, you become that monster once more. Most people will say they respect soldiers, but, in the end, they'd rather meet a movie star or a sports player. After all, these people don't hurt people on a daily basis. They don't hold in their hands a weapon that ends life.
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Post by DEATH97 on Apr 8, 2007 3:02:50 GMT -5
I'll probably take some heat for this conversation, for I think respecting someone for being a drone is pretty simplistic. The truth of the matter is, that a soldier is just another label like any other. You talk about American soldiers as if they are all heroes. But some joined just for the money, and would do whatever they could to get out of there. Its a mixed bag. But you have to remember the same thing of the other side. They aren't ALL monsters strapped with bombs on suicidal runs. You ask if I would shoot an approaching man who wouldn't stop on my order? Well that depends on the situation, but I wouldn't be to shocked if the person who doesn't speak English, doesn't understand English when I speak it too him.
Shoot first and ask questions later is a cowards way. That is not a hero, or someone I'd respect. Their are monsters within our ranks. Just because you sign up for the military and put on a uniform does not mean your a good person. Look at police officers. They should all be respected by your mentality, or the point of view of the majority, but their are alot of corrupt cops. People in those uniforms are just like you and me, be it behind the badge or under the helmet. They are greedy, they are cowards, they are racists, they are corrupt, they are arrogant, they are selfish. And yes.. some truly are Heroes. But Those true few are a very, very small minority.
In answer to the question though, I respect those I feel deserving. I respect the individual though, not a group, like soldiers or actors. I respect those that have shown they've earned it. I don't believe we live in the same times as the old days. 30 to 40 years ago when everyone was suppose to be proper, or show eachother respect.
In my opinion, even parents ought to earn their children's respect. Just because two people chose to have sex, does not mean I should be forced to look up to them, and respect them. Some parents are abusive, and don't deserve their childrens love, but think they should demand it, and have their respect just because they are their mother and father. Its an Idea that is long past. I give respect when its due, but unfortunatly that is not often. I respect my parents and most of my family, and maybe one.. or two good friends.
Everyone else is neutral to me until they've shown me otherwise.
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Post by Dagothkitty on Apr 8, 2007 9:20:09 GMT -5
As the grandson of a marine, I am offended you didn't list marines whilst listing various branches of the military... That aside... A friend of mine sent me this a while ago. 'Tis a nice article. To sum it up, most people will never like anyone whom they know can kill. If you can hold a gun, and are willing to shoot someone with it, in cold blood or to save another, you are a monster until you do help someone with it. And then, as time passes, you become that monster once more. Most people will say they respect soldiers, but, in the end, they'd rather meet a movie star or a sports player. After all, these people don't hurt people on a daily basis. They don't hold in their hands a weapon that ends life. I said all of the U.S. army. As in armed forces, not just the branch. So, technically, I did say marines. I have a friend that might join the marines, so I think they are just as awesome as the rest.
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Post by Uesugi on Apr 8, 2007 13:44:21 GMT -5
Death, I am curious: what do you think of the men who died trying to form this country? Would you rather had they not fought, and instead remained open to unfair taxation? Would you rather that we still be part of Britain? Would you rather that Americans had never experienced freedom?
Yes, there are corrupt soldier, corrupt police officers, etc. In fact, everyone is corrupt. 'Tis what sin does. Regardless, however, no idiot worth his salt joins the military without knowing what it may cost him. Everyone in the armed forces knows that they may very well die. So, tell me, are these people not heroes?
Death, if someone died for you, for your wife, for your kids, died so that they can be at home, happy, safe, free, are they not heroes? Are they not deserving of some sort of respect, however little?
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Post by renofthefallenstar on Apr 8, 2007 14:43:25 GMT -5
I respect no-one.
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Post by Inquisitor Loki on Apr 8, 2007 18:42:15 GMT -5
Saw that coming
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Post by renofthefallenstar on Apr 8, 2007 20:21:36 GMT -5
Except Brian Jaques and maybe myself sometimes. And my boss.
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Post by DEATH97 on Apr 8, 2007 22:01:54 GMT -5
Death, I am curious: what do you think of the men who died trying to form this country? Would you rather had they not fought, and instead remained open to unfair taxation? Would you rather that we still be part of Britain? Would you rather that Americans had never experienced freedom? Yes, there are corrupt soldier, corrupt police officers, etc. In fact, everyone is corrupt. 'Tis what sin does. Regardless, however, no idiot worth his salt joins the military without knowing what it may cost him. Everyone in the armed forces knows that they may very well die. So, tell me, are these people not heroes? Death, if someone died for you, for your wife, for your kids, died so that they can be at home, happy, safe, free, are they not heroes? Are they not deserving of some sort of respect, however little? Well thats a silly response Uesugi. I never claimed to not respect those that fight for the right reasons. I just said that I don't respect someone just because he's a soldier. Its just a title to me. The problem is I don't know which ones are deserving of respect. Which ones are fighting for the right reasons. So I don't just go.. Well some are good, and some our bad, but I'll give them all my respect. Sorry I just don't work that way. I respect the individual. You can't really speak about those that fought for this country and formed it, for you weren't there. Everything you know came from someone else. Or some book. Some history teacher who also wasn't there. I don't put too much faith in history. The government lies to its people. It alters the truth to make things look the way they want them too. Fact is the media is everywhere today, its so hard for the government to hide these things. But they still try. I can only imagine how it was like back then. No... I imagine that what we are taught in history books, and stories of men, are far from the truth. Some are fact, some are complete fabrications. Its sad to see everyone following so blindly. I draw everything I know from first hand experience. This is with everything from history, to my own faith. I don't believe the things I do because some preacher told me, or because I read it in a book. I believe because its the way I feel.. I feel the truth. Most tune it out to be sheep and follow the word of someone else. I look at soldiers kinda the way I look at Professional Boxers. They both fight. Some may do it for honor, or glory.. or perhaps an even honorable purpose. But alot just do it for the large pay check. Alot... and I mean Alot of soldiers sign up because its sometimes their only feasible choice to get a good education. They don't want to be soldiers, but they couldn't get the scholarship they wanted and know the Military will pay for their schooling. Plus that 20,000 dollars sign up bonus is nice too. I almost signed up for that reason myself. Then you have those young adults, that have been in trouble with the law, and have to choose between prison time or enlisting. So all these people deserve my respect because they picked what they felt was the lesser of two evils? Someone who would sacrifice their own life to save a loved one, or a complete stranger is a Hero. He is someone that deserves respect. But not every soldier is like that. And if you truly believe that every man that wears the uniform deserves the entire countries respect, then I think your a bit delusional. Does everyone in the armed forces know that they very well might die? Of course they do.. but News flash... Were all going to die. The only thing that makes me respect the uniform is that its a high risk job. But I was a corrections officer. I wore a uniform, I wore a badge. I was trapped in a concrete wing outnumbered Two hundred to One. Thats high risk. One thing they teach you is any prison can be taken over in an instant if the prisoners decided they wanted too. I know what it takes to work in an environment like that. But I know alot of those people wearing that uniform weren't worth a damn. Not everyone there... actually hardly anyone there, worked there for the noble cause of protecting the society from the criminals within. No.. they were there for the paycheck. So should I respect them for just coming to their jobs? Because thats what it sounds like your doing, or expecting everyone else to do. Respect the soldiers for doing what their paid to do. I respect the volunteers. Take secret service as an example. They throw theirselves in front of a bullet for the president. Honorable? Demands respect right? I would disagree. They get paid well to do that. Remove their paycheck, their benefits. Now how many would still jump? Take away the soldiers income. How many that our over their now, that demand our "respect" would still be there? Would go for no other reason to protect their country? Oh... I think you'd be surprised to see just how many honorable men their are. If the battle hit our backyards, you would see Honorable men, picking up rifles and defending their family and homes. No paycheck required. I know... I'd be in the front line. But I don't believe in this war. And I'm not alone.
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Post by Uesugi on Apr 9, 2007 17:58:01 GMT -5
This is a poor analogy, Death. Though they both fight, and though they can both be harmed, even to the point of death, doing their jobs, it is not the same kind of work. One fights to protect his country. Sure, he may be some kid who could've gone to jail, or did it just for the money, but the deed he does is not diminished by who he is. When most people say they respect soldiers, Death, they say it more in the line of respecting their actions. You can't deny that all people are bad people, that some are less bad than others, and that we should all be judged according to our actions. However, if someone happens to be in the army, fighting for our freedom, our safety, or our land, then they are doing something noble. Their reasons may not be respectable, but their actions, their intent... those undoubtably have to be. Boxers, however, do not fight for anything more than pass-time, fun, entertainment. Though they can get hurt, seriously sometimes, at the end of the day all they've managed to do was protect their pride, perhaps. Or unwillingly protect another's. They do not face danger simply for being a boxer, however. No one will bomb their apartments or homes, no one will come at them intent on killing them, not unless they've totally done something wrong. I am doing neither. I respect a soldier like I would an every day person; I do however hold them in high regard, and I respect their actions more than anything. You seem to have this idea that everyone in the army is a greedy, conniving, sun-of-a-gun. Sure, we can't tell who are the better ones, and who the bad ones truly are, but we can't condemn them all because of it. You can best judge someone based on their actions, because, at the end of it, that's the only thing you truly know of a person. And, I am curious: what do you think of the soldiers who volunteer to go back for a second tour? Are they in it for the money, Death, or do they really want to help their nation? Ah, so Columbus never existed, the Natives willingly handed over the Americas, Matthew Perry never forced a non-Xenophobic Japan to open its ports to those other than the dutch, there was no atom bomb, we never landed on the moon, Britain wasn't a world power, blacks were never enslaved, and the Boston tea party was just that: a tea party! Sarcasm aside, I do understand what you mean. Wasn't it Churchill who said the victors are the ones writing history, and I know Hitler said men will believe what the leader tells them to be true (or something akin to that). Though it is good to question, saying that because the government is in the position to lie (and you speak of the media as if it were a good thing, too!) doesn't mean they will. Sure, the Revolutionary war may not have been as bloody, but I don't doubt that there wasn't a dear price to pay. Sure, the events leading up to it may be foggy, but for whatever reason the colonists felt mistreated as one of Britain's colonies. You can't quite say the exact reasons, you never can, but we can safely say that this nation was founded by angry people. However, this could warrant a small debate of its own... And what if I, a Church goer who reads the Bible when I can and would listen to a good pastor if one ever showed up happened to, you know, believe something because that is the way I feel too. because, deep down inside, I know it's the truth. You know, like you just described there, whilst calling a lot of people poor little sheep following others brainlessly? Yeah, sure, some don't, but you seem to take the sampling of a group, and apply it as a paradigm for others. You did it with soldiers, and now you do it with those of a religious nature. Please, stop, before you do it to someone not so forgiving. Sometimes, books and speakers can help push someone toward a path they may not otherwise see. Some will not believe that the path they are shown is the one to follow, and will find another. Pastors don't force people to believe what they say, at least none I've never been around have (but, Baptists tend to be very lax... hmm). Instead, they offer an idea, offer their perspective. No one has to believe it, but sometimes it is insightful. Those who make poor believers of whatever religion are the ones who do follow as sheep, but are also the ones who do not truly follow the religion. First hand experience doesn't always cut it. Based on first hand experience, I would have to say nothing exists on the other side of the sea. That is wrong, however. Even if you have an inkling, listening to what another thinks may be beneficial. It doesn't, however, make you a sheep led to the slaughter. Aye, it may've been. I do admit to being a bit muddled at the time, however, it is no where near as silly as this: Since when was this little discussion about war?
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Post by DEATH97 on Apr 10, 2007 1:34:58 GMT -5
All good points Uesugi. And I don't have any real argument to anything you've said. Its just that I feel my words aren't being taken the way their actually said. I said its a Mixed bag when it comes to the military. No, I won't respect the soldier as a whole, because I still feel a soldier is just a title, and some aren't deserving of my respect. I never said I do the opposite. I don't just disrespect them either.
Same with the spiritual comment. I never said "whilst calling a lot of people poor little sheep following others brainlessly?" I didn't say anything remotely close to that.
I just said SOME people choose to follow another's word blindly. That may not be me, or you, or anyone we know. Doesn't mean its not true. I'm not attacking soldiers as a whole, or people for their beliefs. You keep giving me examples of those that are fighting for their country, but I've said before. Those that truly are fighting for their country I do respect. If that is their purpose, then they are fighting for what they believe in, even if I don't believe in the same thing. It does deserve my respect.
I'm just saying thats not the case with every soldier, so I choose not to say I respect the soldiers. My brother n law is with the army reserve. He calls in sick to get out drills, he's called in favors to keep from being sent anywhere, and has been successful. He's been in the army since before desert storm was over, but hasn't done a single useful thing. Frankly he's a coward. He's a bad father, and a horrible husband to my sister. He's cheated on her several times when he is supposedly at drills. Yet he likes to wear his uniform when he goes out, and I watch as people literally salute him, and want to shake his hand in wal-mart because they respect the uniform that he only tarnishes.
Is this one of those people I should respect? Yeah he chose to re-enlist, and got another 10,000 dollars to do so. He's not a good person, and just because he wears a uniform, that SHOULD mean something great I will not show him my respect. For he does not deserve it.
Point is, That uniform means nothing to me. Its the man/woman that wears it that I respect. But only if they wear it for the right reasons.
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Post by Uesugi on Apr 10, 2007 17:46:48 GMT -5
If I were you, I wouldn't even bother calling him a soldier... So he has never seen action? I'm sure you could find a way to have him sent to Iraq, or to prison.
I keep using those examples because (real) soldiers are out at war. The soldiers that I, and (I think) Dagoth, have been referring to as the ones we respect are out on the frontlines, or have been. I doubt many would consider anyone less a soldier (though that does come down to personal preference). As you said previously, a soldier is one who fights, so would you honestly consider your Brother in Law a soldier?
And sure, they may have wound up in Iraq because they wanted schooling, or money, but that doesn't diminish the deed that they are doing. They may load their rifles for an education, but they only fire them for freedom. A hypocrite's word is no less true because he is a hypocrite, and neither is a soldier's deed less glorious because he wants some cash.
Well, you called those who followed the words of a book or preacher "sheep", and it was stated in similar context to your comment about people "following so blindly." It may not have been what you said, but, from my perspective, it is what you meant.
Shame this puttered out so fast...
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Post by DEATH97 on Apr 11, 2007 1:36:58 GMT -5
Well now your finally splitting the definition of a soldier into differen't catagories. That changes everything. If Dagoth meant soldier as a true soldier. Not just someone who wears the uniform but someone who fights for his country, then yes, they have my respect, and have earned it. If he meant anyone that is in the military, then I stick with what I said before. Actually I didn't call those that followed the words of a book or preacher "sheep". Although after going back and reading that post again, I can see how it appears so. I didn't mean it in that way however. And I apologize If I offended anyone with that mistake. When I was speaking of following the words of another, I was thinking more along the lines of drones. Those that have been taken advantage of by Cults. Some don't have a faith of their own, so they require someone to tell them what to believe. I in no way meant to imply that those that follow the bible or become inspired by the words of a Preacher are mindless sheep. A horrible mishap on my part. I think I've explained my opinion on the matter at hand, the best that I can. So my part in this discussion is over.... maybe
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Post by Dagothkitty on Apr 11, 2007 15:40:59 GMT -5
Wow, good debate. I agree weith Uesugi though.
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